The Wanderer

"As I walked through the wilderness of this world . . ."

Reformed and Baptist: the third wave

with 15 comments

This is a cross-post from Reformation21.

Not long ago, the good Dr Trueman took up the question of why the label ‘Reformed’ is more often associated with Baptists than with Presbyterians.

I appreciated the irenic tone of Carl’s answer (appreciably and appreciatedly different to the caustic and dismissive attitude of some others), and I share a number of his underlying convictions. My intention in this post is not to start a fight with the esteemed Trueman or anyone else, nor to try to put clear blue water between churches like the one I serve and everyone else in the whole wide world, nor indeed to enter a competition about who is the most Reformed. (Indeed, I admit to a sinking feeling whenever someone – usually with a self-satisfied tone – takes it upon themselves to inform me that not only are they Reformed, but that they consider themselves to be very Reformed – whatever that means.)

Carl concluded his piece by saying that “the eclipse of Presbyterians in the evangelical world’s adoption of the term ‘Reformed’ is probably in large part a function of the transformation of the term’s meaning by the contemporary evangelical scene. This is not something I myself will lose any sleep over.” No more do I lose sleep over the strident demands of some Presbyterians that I relinquish any right to the label: I am happy to be a Reformed Baptist, a Particular Baptist, a confessional (or ‘1689’) Baptist, an independent Baptist, or whatever particular label enables someone to fit me fairly accurately into a fairly appropriate pigeonhole.

Similarly, I think that there is a degree of common ground between Carl and those of my ilk, stamp and kidney: I agree that the word ‘Reformed’ should mean more than ‘vaguely Calvinistic in its soteriology.’ I agree that the word ‘confessional’ is bandied around with some carelessness and a great deal of vacuity as a kind of synonym for ‘orthodox’. I further accept that real confessionalism – like any form of real conviction – enshrines certain proper distinctions (and, in degree, necessary divisions) over issues of the ordinances and ecclesiology (though it should be noted that soteriology raises its head here as well). Indeed, it is for these very reasons that when someone tells me that they are a Reformed Baptist, my response tends to be something like, “That’s great! Would you mind telling me exactly what you mean by that?”

Furthermore, I accept (without agreement) that for some Presbyterians (I am not suggesting that this is true for Carl), the historical narrative for the Reformed and the legitimate application of the word stop short somewhere in or around Dordrecht in the early seventeenth century (others would, perhaps, like to turn a little further back and south toward Calvin’s Geneva, some forward and west toward Westminster in the mid-seventeenth century). Indeed, I have seen one definition of ‘Reformed’ that included, as a fairly central element, the wearing of a Geneva gown in worship. Now if that isn’t an oddity, kindly fax me an explanation of what is!

But in the midst of it all, I find that nowhere does the good doctor properly allow for the kind of Reformed Baptist that I am and that many of my friends are, and neither do many of the discussions of this issue. I guess I am, in part, picking up on this because of Carl’s Anabaptist jibe of some moons ago, to which I responded with tongue equally firmly in cheek. But behind those friendly barbs and this post lies a more serious concern. In the discussion of what it means to be Reformed, and in the consideration of what it means to be a Reformed Baptist (or whatever else you wish to call us), I generally find that there is a gap on the spectrum that is overlooked or quickly dismissed, the gap that tends to be brushed over with the suggestion that there are Reformed Baptists who are not quite (or at all) Pipettes or a certain brand of Southern Baptists or Acts 29 types or SGM guys, but who actually – to use Carl’s words – “hold to more traditional forms of worship and polity.”

This post, after that long preamble, intends to introduce the small group of such men and churches more formally. And no, I do not presume to be any kind of appointed spokesman for all or part of that group. And no, I do not presume that relative smallness means that we have an innate claim to greater purity than anyone else (though it does have an effect on our visibility). Furthermore, we do not really have, as far as I know, any great gurus or monumental figureheads – I mean, we have enough personalities to start some miserable fights, but no name behind which we all line up. People might come to our churches and start throwing around the names of the evangelical and ‘Reformed’ celebrities and trying to figure out whether or not we are of Paul or Cephas or Apollos but – by and large – we do not neatly fit into such camps, although we have genuine and sometimes close affinities with several of them. It may be that part of the problem is that, historically, we did not have our roots in the US (although it is fair to say that the twentieth century resurgence – for the New Calvinists are not the first to use the word – among Reformed Baptists probably had a more American flavour than otherwise).

It was, indeed, the Anabaptists who provided the backdrop to some of the first public statements of those who would become known as Reformed Baptists, but not as some would imagine. The first Calvinistic or Particular Baptist churches in England had their origins in the 1630s when men like William Kiffin (and, later, Hanserd Knollys) sat under the umbrella of the Independent congregation usually known as the Jacob-Lathrop-Jessey church. By the mid-1640s both Kiffin and Knollys had left the Jessey church to form distinctively Baptist congregations.

Perhaps the definitive breaking of cover for the Particular Baptists was their 1644 Confession. This is an important document: seven churches produced it in order to make plain their distinctive beliefs while putting distance between themselves and the excesses and errors of the continental Anabaptist groups on the one hand, as well as the General (Arminian) Baptists on the other. At this time (and, my, haven’t things changed!) the label ‘Anabaptist’ was a deliberate slur, designating the kind of people who could be relied upon to turn any society morally upside down within moments (“Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!”), and was readily slapped on people or groups which advocated the novel and dangerous notion that the church did not consist of everyone born into a particular nation-state under the auspices of its national church. Drawing on a couple of earlier documents, the 1644 was an important step at a point when an essentially Presbyterian Parliament was exercising unprecedented powers and the Westminster divines were recommending some fairly uncomfortable measures for those considered outside the fold. Revisions swiftly followed in 1646, several of which read as unnecessary attempts to appease the powers that be – this was not necessarily an advance, although the line was holding firm.

When Oliver Cromwell died and – after a period of confusion – Charles II assumed the throne, the Baptists were among those who faced severe persecutions. The full weight of a church and state, yoked together in oppression, came down on anyone outside the restored and vengeful Church of England (whether Baptist, Independent or Presbyterian, who were all now more or less beyond the pale). Persecution drove these groups more closely together than they could have been when some Presbyterians had been advocating the forcible sublimation of Baptists and their churches.

Out of this arose a desire on the part of the Baptist churches to demonstrate their common ground with their fellow pilgrims, while maintaining their own distinctive identity from the Paedobaptists on the one hand and the Anabaptists on the other (including the Constantinianism/Erastianism of the former and the wild political radicalism of many of the latter). The result was what is commonly called the 1689 (Second London) Baptist Confession of Faith. Some slight awkwardness arises from the fact that this confession was actually written in 1677, although it was not signed and published until 1689, the year of the Glorious Revolution, when there was a greater degree of freedom afforded to the men and churches responsible.

The 1689 (which I will call it for the sake of simplicity) takes a line from the Westminster Confession of the Presbyterians through the Savoy Declaration of the Independents. Much water had passed under the bridge (and, indeed, over the Baptists) since 1644, and this document was the result of the mature thinking of the finest and godliest minds among the growing churches of the Particular Baptists. It is a great shame that many modern editions of the 1689 omit the introductory epistle “To the Judicious and Impartial Reader,” and what is simply entitled, “An Appendix,” both masterpieces of irenic polemicism, or polemic irenicism, depending on which side you like your bread buttered.

In the former, they explicitly link their work with the form and purpose of the 1644 Confession, while making plain that they wanted not only “to give a full account of our selves, to those Christians that differ from us about the subject of baptism” (I modernise the English slightly in this and the following quotes) but also a defence of the genuine godliness that the doctrine of the Particular Baptists was producing, a godliness that would have been recognised as essentially the same as that of other orthodox believers, tying it in with the work of the Westminster divines and the Savoy Conference. “We have no itch,” they wrote, “to clog religion with new words, but do readily acquiesce in that form of sound words, which has been, in consent and the holy Scriptures, used by other before us.” With a sincere spirit, they went on,

In those things wherein we differ from others, we have expressed our selves with all candour and plainness that none might entertain jealousy of aught secretly lodged in our breasts, that we would not the world should be acquainted with; yet we hope we have also observed those rules of modesty, and humility, as will render our freedom in this respect inoffensive, even to those whose sentiments are different from ours.

The Appendix is equally irenic and equally incisive. It begins:

Whosoever reads, and impartially considers what we have in our forgoing confession declared, may readily perceive, that we do not only concenter with all other true Christians on the Word of God (revealed in the Scriptures of truth) as the foundation and rule of our faith and worship. But that we have also industriously endeavoured to manifest, that in the fundamental articles of Christianity we mind the same things, and have therefore expressed our belief in the same words, that have on the like occasion been spoken by other societies of Christians before us.

What follows, having established this common ground, is a quite brilliant Baptist apologetic (and I do not say that simply because of my fundamental agreement with it), laudable for its clarity and brevity and simplicity, setting out key elements of the Baptist view of salvation, covenant, ordinances and church, concluding:

So may it be now as to many things relating to the service of God, which do retain the names proper to them in their first institution, but yet through inadvertency (where there is no sinister design) may vary in their circumstances, from their first institution. And if by means of any ancient defection, or of that general corruption of the service of God, and interruption of his true worship, and persecution of his servants by the Antichristian Bishop of Rome, for many generations; those who do consult the Word of God, cannot yet arrive at a full and mutual satisfaction among themselves, what was the practise of the primitive Christian Church, in some points relating to the Worship of God: yet inasmuch as these things are not of the essence of Christianity, but that we agree in the fundamental doctrines thereof, we do apprehend, there is sufficient ground to lay aside all bitterness and prejudice, and in the spirit of love and meekness to embrace and own each other therein; leaving each other at liberty to perform such other services, (wherein we cannot concur) apart unto God, according to the best of our understanding.

What needs to be understood is that these men were not trying to start a war, but neither would their consciences allow them to retreat. The Particular Baptists of the seventeenth century unashamedly considered themselves as the heirs and the advancers – the third wave, if you will – of the Reformation.

Such an awareness was not misplaced triumphalism or mere bombast. These men and churches appreciated where they had come from, but they had clear views as to where they needed to go. In espousing their distinctive convictions they realised that they were in disagreement not only with the Anglican Church but also with fellow Dissenters – Presbyterians like Richard Baxter and Independents such as John Owen. They understood that the magisterial Reformers had struck the first blows, being responsible for exposing the corruptions of Antichrist and bringing important doctrines such as justification by faith to light. The second wave they identified in men like William Ames and later John Owen, who argued that on the one hand a true gospel church was comprised of professing saints, but on the other hand that the children of believers were still to be baptized by sprinkling. They appreciated that many of the Puritans had gone (far) beyond the half-way Reformation of Anglicanism (which – despite some outstanding men, and because of circumstances peculiar to the United Kingdom – stalled in its application of the same foundational realities), and how the Puritans pressed the principles of the Reformation into additional spheres of faith and life, many paying for it with their expulsion. But with the third wave the error of infant baptism was exposed. Now the Particular Baptists, self-consciously a part of this progress, were pressing those Reformation principles more fully into further areas of faith and life, not least the doctrine of the church, especially with regard to its very nature and its role and purpose on the earth.

This central issue and their sense of their place is evident in the preface to Philip Carey’s splendidly-titled A Solemn Call unto all that would be owned as Christ’s Faithful Witnesses, speedily and seriously, to attend unto the Primitive Purity of the Gospel Doctrine and Worship: or a Discourse Concerning Baptism (London,1690). Five prominent London Particular Baptists – William Kiffin, John Harris, Richard Adams, Robert Steed and Benjamin Keach, theological leaders among their brothers – put their names to this piece, arguing that “the true gospel visible church is to consist only of such as are saints by profession, and who give themselves up to the Lord and to one another by solemn agreement to practice the ordinances of Christ.” (For more on the doctrine of baptism these men held, see chapter 12 of Austin Walker’s The Excellent Benjamin Keach [Dundas, Ontario: Joshua Press, 2004].)

For all their esteem of the magisterial Reformers and for their ground-breaking labours, and for all their (and our) respect for the often underestimated and undervalued principles and practices that those Reformers embraced, Reformed Baptists cannot regard Geneva as the sole and abiding high-water mark of the Reformation. While recognising the genuine continuity between the Old and New Covenants, our forefathers – with modern Reformed Baptists of the same stripe – also recognised the genuine discontinuity that the Scriptures themselves demand.

In that respect, the principle of a gathered church of baptised believers, conducting itself in the holiness of renewed lives, was something to which those pioneers believed their brothers-in-arms had not attained. A failure to embrace this principle allowed a potentially fatal rot to set in. Again, Benjamin Keach made their convictions and concerns plain when he wrote Light broke forth in Wales, expelling Darkness (London, 1696):

I look upon Infant-Baptism to be one of the chief Pillars of the Romish Church, and of all National Churches and Constitutions in the European World; this is that Christendom that is so cried up, and the way of making and continuing the pretended Christian-Name; in the Anti-christian Church, and World, all are made Christian in their Infant-Baptism: And thus the inhabitants of the Earth are cheated, and deluded with a Shadow and empty Name that signifies nothing; and certain I am, until Christendom (as it is called) is Unchristianed of this pretended Rite, or Christendom, there will never be a thorough Reformation: I mean until they see that Christianity, or Christian-Name, which they received at their Infant-Baptism, signifies nothing, but throw it away as an Human Innovation, and labour after true Regeneration, or a likeness to Christ, and so believe and are baptized upon the profession of their Faith, according as in the Apostolical Primitive Church: ’Tis Infant-Baptism that tends to uphold all National Churches, and deceives poor People who think there were hereby made Christians. (234)

To those who follow these men, in terms of pursuing and applying the Biblical principles that have led and do lead to the reformation of the church, the Reformed or Particular Baptist activity of the seventeenth century was a further step in the right direction, and is an essentially healthy heritage. It is also a developing heritage, as the stream of Particular Baptist thought – with all its struggles and stands, its tensions and triumphs (in common with other traditions) – flows down through a host of gracious and godly men into the present day. (If you are interested in learning more about the men and the issues, you might begin with Robert Oliver’s History of the English Calvinistic Baptists 1791-1892[Banner of Truth, 2006] or the volumes edited by Michael Haykin on The British Particular Baptists I, II and III[Particular Baptist Press].)

In speaking in this way, I am not trying to sneak in the assertion that we are ‘very Reformed.’ However, it ought to be recognised that these Particular Baptists, and those who follow them and take up in this sense the label of ‘Reformed Baptists’, were self-consciously advancing the cause of the Reformation by deliberately pressing its principles into every area of faith and life, even those which had been sacred cows beforehand. At the same time, they were concerned to emphasise their shared doctrinal and practical convictions with those who stood in the same stream of historic, orthodox, Reformed Christianity. (For a brief and popular treatment of both the common ground and the distinctive territory, I think one of the best documents that speaks to this definition of the Reformed Baptists remains the booklet, What is a Reformed Baptist Church? by Jim Savastio.)

And this is one of the particular blessings of a confessional inheritance with so much common ground. When I, as a confessional or 1689 Baptist, sit down with a Westminster Presbyterian or Savoy Congregationalist or Independent, I know just how much we hold in common, and I am able to enjoy fellowship with such a brother on a broad, deep, shared foundation. We also know, clearly and concisely, those issues on which we differ, and how and why we differ, and are therefore able to embrace one another as brothers who walk with a clear conscience before God.

But while we trace the spiritual history, let none of us forget the spiritual reality. Here faith and life must be joined or we will have nothing but painted fire. Surely the Reformed faith is far more than a particular historical connection, a certain theological tradition, or a series of dogmatic assertions. This grasp of things presumes a soul-conquering vision of the great God and Saviour lifted up; it embraces a soul-humbling conviction of one’s own natural sinfulness and wretchedness before that great and holy God; it supposes a soul-enrapturing reception of the grace of that great God and Saviour; and, it issues in a soul-encompassing consecration of the entire redeemed humanity of a saved sinner to the glory of the Lord. It was described, in its essence, by B. B. Warfield in his essay on Calvinism, as lying “in a profound apprehension of God in His majesty, with the inevitably accompanying poignant realization of the exact nature of the relation sustained to Him by the creature as such, and particularly by the sinful creature. . . . when the sinful soul rests in humble, self-emptying trust purely on the God of grace” (Works [Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1991], 5:354-5).

Surely this is the core of the matter: being captured and captivated by the triune God, therefore seeing oneself in proper and humble perspective, both in terms of what we once were without grace, might still be apart from grace, and have now become because of the grace of God in Christ Jesus. What fools we would be to ignore the treasure and fight over the box! If our confessionalism of any genuine stripe – which provides what we are persuaded are Biblical boundaries and direction to the whole – does not involve and produce this vibrant spirituality, then surely it is missing the mark, a mere cipher, a pretty shell without any enduring substance. By this measure, perhaps we ought to ask whether or not we have quite so much scope for self-congratulation as we sometimes seem to imagine? For this view of God in Christ, with all its concomitants and consequences, ought to be what above all unites those who are Reformed, and what imposes those degrees of separation from those with differing views of God and of man.

So, when the issue of what it means to be Reformed gets discussed, we ask not to be lauded and applauded, so much as simply, accurately and fairly recognised as existing. It may be that you just did not realise that we exist. It may be that the kind of Baptist convictions – about soteriology, ecclesiology, pneumatology, doxology and a whole bunch of other ologies – to which you have been exposed have left you with some serious and significant questions, and you have given up looking for the answers among Baptists. It may be that you have met some who take the name of Reformed Baptists who, through pride or ignorance, have left you with a sour taste in your mouth, for which I am sorry. It may be – and I say this in a spirit of straightforward inquiry and not backhanded accusation – that you would rather not acknowledge this part of the spectrum because it does not fit into your historical narrative, and rather upsets your carefully piled apple-cart. But please do not repeat the old saw about Anabaptism; if I might be so bold, it will not wash. Neither dismiss us with the vague assertion that there are some Baptists out there who are both Calvinistic in their soteriology and traditional or conservative in our doxology. That is not what we really are, certainly not all we are. An honest historiography surely requires that – if nothing else – those original Particular Baptists (discounting, of course, the apostles and the early church!) are at least considered on their own terms, and taken for what they believed themselves to be, even if you might disagree with them.

There are those who are still doing what our forefathers did (and, in fact, what their Reforming, Presbyterian and Congregational forefathers had begun to do): seeking to press the Word of God ever further and more firmly into the hearts and minds of the people of God, individually and corporately, so as to promote, under God, this full-orbed appreciation of and consecration to the Lord God. As such, the Particular Baptists are – or should be – not so much slipping back as stepping forward in reformation, finding the older paths and walking in them, and – in the spirit of fraternal encouragement – it would be remiss of me, even churlish, not to invite you to join us.

Written by Jeremy Walker

Monday 9 July 2012 at 12:50

15 Responses

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  1. Hello (again) Jeremy,

    I have come here because reformation 21 doesn’t allow for comments whilst you kindly do so.

    Thank you for all the interesting information concerning the origins of Particular Baptists, their adherence to the main points of orthodox Christianity mediated through their Presbyterian/Congregational brothers as well as their irenic Christian spirit, though I thought the quote from Benjamin Keech on the subject of infant baptism both intemperate to say nothing of being a parody of reformed understanding on the subject.

    Personally, I think it is wonderful that you want to give expression to reformed convictions regarding soteriology and related doctrines.

    Nevertheless as one speaking for Reformed Baptists, I am unpersuaded by your inclusion of Baptists, at least some of them, among the Reformed.

    You speak of three waves with a peculiarly anglo centric orientation whereas in the broader Reformation, I suggest the three waves are Lutheran, Reformed and Anabaptist. I notice that in your article you wish to place some distance between the Particular Baptists and Anabaptists which is fair enough when considering “the excesses and errors of the continental Anabaptist groups”, but not good enough when considering what makes a Baptist, whether Reformed or otherwise, distinctive. And let’s be frank, that distinction is important to a Baptist, even to the point that for membership in a Baptist Church (let us say the only Bible believing church in town is Baptist) a paedobaptist must be rebaptised and further I discovered on a recent trip in Canada was a bar to me and my friends when attending a prominent Baptist Church in Toronto joining the saints their at the table of our Lord at the conclusion of the regular service a party of which I was a member (a mild subsequent protest produced a statement that said we should have been welcomed, but offered no apology for our exclusion – I had asked whether as Presbyterians and Anglicans we would be welcome).

    Let it also be said that paedobaptism, or covenant baptism as we prefer, is not some unreformed practice left over from the Roman church but rather for us a matter of principle grounded in Scripture and a matter of great joy to the congregation as believing parents, members of the congregation bring their children forward for baptism, a joy to be repeated when those self same children stand in the congregation to confirm and profess with their own lips the faith that entitles them to sit at the Lord’s Table.

    I think I have previously advanced the notion that Reformed historically understood as the second Reformation wave has also stood for a certain way of doing Church, whether continental Reformed or Scottish/English Presbyterianism, and an understanding of the Lord’s Supper as more than a mere remembrance. Also perhaps not so well understood is the Ana(Baptist) rejection of Luther and Calvin’s two kingdom theology with its acceptance of natural law – this latter point was brought home forcibly to me earlier this year when as part of a joint Anglican/Catholic/Baptist/Presbyterian working party working on a statement on marriage in the context of the political drive for same sex marriage we developed both biblical and natural law arguments for endorsement by all church leaders, the Baptists alone, and for principled reasons, refused to sign statements that included natural law arguments, preferring only Biblical arguments. I do not criticise them for this, only noting their adherence to Anabaptist principle.

    At the end of the day we can call ourselves what we like and I certainly appreciated Baptists whose hearts warm to the so called five points of Calvinism. However, on the ground there is a good deal of distance between us – linking Reformed and Baptist, both on doctrinal and historical grounds is, I suggest, drawing a rather long bow.

    Cheers for now

    David

    David Palmer

    Wednesday 11 July 2012 at 00:07

  2. David,

    For what it’s worth, the confessional tradition about which Jeremy is writing does not insist that credobaptism is a prerequisite for church membership, and it certainly does not specify closed communion. These are areas outside the confessional boundaries in which genuinely confessional Reformed Baptists disagree. Nor are we expressly “One-Kingdom”; those of us familiar with that debate tend to think that our confession leans in a more “Two-Kingdom” direction.

    I have heard of at least one Presbyterian congregation which refuses to allow Baptists at the Table because of our failure to baptize our children. Should I assume that this is the practice of all Presbyterians? Should I use it as an example of the lack of Christian charity among everyone who takes the name “Presbyterian”?

    Your comment strikes me as repeating a rather common error in this discussion. A Presbyterian has had some unsavory experience with Baptists and he assumes that what he has experienced must be of the essence of Baptist doctrine and practice. On that basis he concludes that Baptist theology is radically distinct from Reformed theology.

    The root of the problem is the assumption that everyone who takes the name “Baptist” must share all the quirks and follies of everyone else who takes that name. I would think that those whose “fellow” Presbyterians have given us Theonomy, Federal Vision, and (to take things to their logical extreme) liberal American Presbyterianism’s endorsement of homosexuality – such persons might just want to adopt a somewhat more nuanced approach to denominational identity.

    Jeremy’s article introduces a confessional history which is unknown to many. Those of us who are thoroughly immersed in that confessional stream realize that we are a small minority among the large numbers of believers who are called “Baptist.” Our desire is only that we be identified and judged according to the words of our confession and the long history through which our churches have believed and practiced those words. It seems a more just standard than something unpleasant which happened to you once in Toronto.

    Tom Chantry

    Wednesday 11 July 2012 at 11:34

  3. Hi Tom,

    Don’t make too much of my experience in Toronto. It was an over zealous elder (?) and his answer to my question was that those who had been immersed were welcome, which would have allowed an Eastern Orthodox to have joined this group at the Lord’s Table, but regardless we understood what he actually meant.

    You fail to deal with the deeper and more confronting issue I raised of the rebaptism those baptised as infants.

    I really don’t mind Jeremy wishing to identify with Calvinists, or take the name Reformed in respect to the doctrines of grace – indeed I welcome it!

    My concern is the downplaying of the Anabaptist roots of the Baptist position and the fact that being a Calvinist is more than the 5 points of Calvinism, and in these other respects contrary to Baptist positions, but I repeat myself.

    I should really have been so picky with Jeremy but he does, in my opinion, claim too much.

    David Palmer

    Sunday 15 July 2012 at 23:27

  4. Oops a couple of typos….

    ….the rebaptism of those baptised as infants….

    ….I should really not have been so picky….

    David Palmer

    Sunday 15 July 2012 at 23:30

  5. David,

    “…being a Calvinist is more than the 5 points of Calvinism…”

    Look, I know this is a talking point among the more aggressive Presbyterians out there, but repeating it in response to Jeremy’s article makes one appear illiterate. Is the Confessional Reformed Baptist position identical in every part to Westminster Presbyterianism? No. But how do you then arrive at the idea that we only agree on the five points of Calvinism? Jeremy’s article was written to refute that very idea.

    This is why some of us in the Confessional Baptist camp are frustrated. Some of you flatly refuse to deal with us as we are; you seem determined to deal with us as though we were someone else that you once met. Our words bounce off some Presbyterians who apparently think they know the definition of “Baptist” far better than we do.

    tjchantry

    Monday 16 July 2012 at 01:56

  6. I’m clearly irritating, so I will leave the matter, cheers for now

    David

    David Palmer

    Tuesday 17 July 2012 at 01:26

    • Hello, David – it is not that you are irritating anyone, I think, so much as seeming determined to read past the point of the article. While I think that Tom has done a good job of pointing out that point, I am hoping to pick up one of your contentions when I have a little more leisure.

      Jeremy Walker

      Tuesday 17 July 2012 at 17:51

      • Well, I hope that intention to follow up “one of (my) contentions” covers the Baptist insistence on re-baptising those baptised as infants. I noticed Tom, who certainly appeared to me to be irritated, failed to respond to this point despite my raising it a second time.

        Whilst I noted your use of the word “irenic” in relation to the 1689 Baptist Confession, you then went on to quote a certain Benjamin Keach, which seemed to me to be with approval, on the subject of infant baptism. No matter how elastic a definition you may imagine for “irenic”, Keach’s statement was far from irenic, more like intemperate I would say.

        I suppose the point that I take issue with you is your downplaying of the connexion to Anabaptism, which is the source of infant baptism, the gathered church and congregational polity. The Reformed strand of the Reformation knew nothing of these things, whether we are talking Geneva or Zurich.

        As I say, I hope to see you take up the issue of the re-baptism of the already baptised (as infants) – we may then have another conversation.

        David Palmer

        Friday 20 July 2012 at 23:30

        • Hello,

          Anyone at home?

          Cheers

          David

          David Palmer

          Thursday 26 July 2012 at 11:53

          • David –

            In answer to your last question, no one was home. I have been on holiday. In answer to your previous concerns, while Tom has emphasised that there are areas outside the confession on which Baptists – as, I am sure, Presbyterians with regard to their confessions – disagree, it may be worth pointing that for most Reformed Baptists, we have no intention of ‘rebaptizing.’ Our very short definition of baptism might be something along the lines of “the immersion of a believer who has a credible profession as a public testimony to that one’s union with Christ in his death and resurrection, a mark of public association with Christ and his people.” The parallels between the old and new covenant are flesh circumcision (the seed of Abraham) and heart circumcision (the seed of Christ), not flesh circumcision and baptism. Baptism is the outward attestation of the inward change.

            I hope that this brief definition will make it plain that Baptists do not rebaptize, we baptize. That is true of the new convert who has only recently come under the influence of the gospel, and had not been raised with any kind of Christian instruction. It is true of the person sprinkled or dipped as an infant but who has recently been genuinely converted. It is true of the person who once got very wet in a religious setting because he or she thought that (a) ‘walking the aisle’ was the same as conversion or (b) getting very wet was the way into the kingdom or (c) some other similar or equivalent error, and has since genuinely repented of their sin and believed in Christ. In other words, the rite itself, even in its nature of immersion, even with a Trinitarian formula, is not baptism unless it is joined with living faith in Christ in the one who is undergoing that rite.

            In any of these cases, then, I am not rebaptizing. I am baptizing, because anything else was not really baptism. I should also point out that this does not mean that we are baptizing people willy-nilly, nor doing so multiple times (for example, if someone kept saying, “But I am not sure I was really converted last time.”)
            Now, I accept that, to you, much of this might be considered ‘anabaptism.’ However, I think that, in fairness, you should accept that, for a Baptist, it is very much not so, because we do not believe that the individual in question has been previously baptized according to the Biblical nature of the ordinance.

            Let me also point out that, with one of my Presbyterian or Congregational brothers in Christ who has all the evidences of true conversion together with a worked out commitment to a church which holds fast to and declares the gospel and its concomitant truths (as expressed, for example, in the Westminster or Savoy documents), I do not spend all my time accusing such of being a closet Romanist. I rather accept them for what they profess to be on the basis of the fruit in their life, though both of us believe that the other is wrong in the matter of the nature and subjects of the ordinance. I also accept that these brothers, some of whom I count among my dearest friends, believe themselves, with a clear and sincere conscience, to be Scripturally baptized. I am persuaded that they are not correct in this, but I will not spend all my time denying or undermining their sense of it.

            Baptism is important. Anyone who says otherwise is, I believe, missing the point, for it is connected with issues of soteriology and ecclesiology at a profound level. Keach’s language, convinced and earnest, communicates that importance, just as much as does equally definite language on the part of certain Presbyterians. However, that particular difference of opinion, where so much else is held in common, does not need to divide brothers. I may disagree with the route you have taken, but if we arrive at a common point, at least we can hold fast there.

            You will appreciate that there is much in this short comment that I am not addressing, but I hope it answers your fundamental question.

            In answer to some of your other supplementary questions, I think that it can be demonstrated that some Reformers did indeed begin to wrestle with such matters as a gathered church (for example, someone I know is looking at Bucer’s experience [if you will allow Strasbourg to count alongside of Geneva and Zurich] of drawing together a group within the church he served of those who truly knew and sincerely followed the Lord Christ). I am not saying that all these elements were present, or that all were developed, but to say that they never got on the radar screen would be mistaken. Also, I think it might be demonstrated that such things as the ‘two kingdoms’ theology beloved of many Presbyterians in some circles has its roots in the Anabaptist movement, so maybe it is not all bad!

            Jeremy Walker

            Monday 13 August 2012 at 13:01

  7. Jeremy Walker wrote:
    “The Particular Baptists of the seventeenth century unashamedly considered themselves as the heirs and the advancers – the third wave, if you will – of the Reformation.”

    David Palmer wrote:
    “You speak of three waves with a peculiarly anglo centric orientation whereas in the broader Reformation, I suggest the three waves are Lutheran, Reformed and Anabaptist.”

    I am a novice on Reformed thinking and not knowing what these “waves” are, I would like to know 1) how many are there? 2) what are they? 3) are there more “waves” to come? 4) and what might they be?

    Jan Áki Andreasen

    Thursday 19 July 2012 at 11:22

    • Greetings, Jan. Thanks for your question. The suggestion of these three waves, in my original piece, takes into account the perspective (Anglocentric, according to David) of the Particular Baptists of 17th century London. The key paragraph is as follows:

      “They understood that the magisterial Reformers had struck the first blows, being responsible for exposing the corruptions of Antichrist and bringing important doctrines such as justification by faith to light. The second wave they identified in men like William Ames and later John Owen, who argued that on the one hand a true gospel church was comprised of professing saints, but on the other hand that the children of believers were still to be baptized by sprinkling. They appreciated that many of the Puritans had gone (far) beyond the half-way Reformation of Anglicanism (which – despite some outstanding men, and because of circumstances peculiar to the United Kingdom – stalled in its application of the same foundational realities), and how the Puritans pressed the principles of the Reformation into additional spheres of faith and life, many paying for it with their expulsion. But with the third wave the error of infant baptism was exposed. Now the Particular Baptists, self-consciously a part of this progress, were pressing those Reformation principles more fully into further areas of faith and life, not least the doctrine of the church, especially with regard to its very nature and its role and purpose on the earth.”

      So, the three waves I identify are: (1) the magisterial Reformers; (2) the Puritans, especially the Independents; (3) the Particular Baptists. My contention is that the Baptists thought of themselves in this way, and that this perspective ought to be recognised, even if one disagrees with it. As you will see, David disagrees.

      I suppose one could argue about further divisions and subdivisions, and many might suggest that they are the fourth (or some subsequent) wave. Whether or not there are further developments I could not say. My current assessment is that many present discussions are in fact revisions and rehearsals of previous contentions, rather than genuine advances. However, the need to go on pressing home the principles of the Reformation will not cease, because these are those gospel realities which require our continued defence of them and advance in them.

      I hope that this helps.

      Jeremy Walker

      Thursday 19 July 2012 at 11:33

      • Thanks, Jeremy

        I was not able to attend the summercamp in Denmark this year, but I’m looking forward to listen to recordings later this fall :-)

        How would you describe the main differenses between your position and that of the (open) Plymouth Brethren?

        My background is the Faroese Brethren Church, and I’m trying to figure out the Likness/Differensess between them and Reformed Baptists.

        Jan Áki Andreasen

        Thursday 19 July 2012 at 12:19

        • Hello, Jan – I have not forgotten this, but my knowledge of the distinctives of the Open Brethren is limited. For example, I don’t know how much we might have in common (I imagine, as so often, it might depend on which man you are speaking with), and I am aware of differences of opinion, for example, on leadership in the church and the forms of worship (and the principles behind them). I don’t know if anyone else reading this can help you. If you know the brothers at Bjerringbro, they might be able to assist you better than I can. If you wanted to highlight a few of the distinctives you might have in mind, I could always try and give my sense of the matters.

          Jeremy Walker

          Friday 7 September 2012 at 15:28

  8. [...] blog, reformation 21, which doesn’t allow comment. However Jeremy has his own blog and I posted there. My point was that Baptists belong to the Anabaptist stream of the Reformation and although they, [...]

    Do the 5 points make a Calvinist? |

    Friday 1 February 2013 at 02:42


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